“The Post you are trying to comment on no longer exists in the database.”

I am trying to post to my own letter to see if I receive the same error message. Sorry for the intrusion. Wally

3CirclesCommunity wrote in response to my letter:
Jesus told us that we are to learn how to abide in him, so that we might be one with the Father as he is one with the father. Jesus tells us he longs for us to share the same glory he has been given by the Father: “And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one” (Jn 17:22).

3circles, And who was this Father that Jesus referred to? Who but the barbaric Hebrew tribal deity Yahweh? Do you really want your precious Jesus to be one with that God? Can you really reconcile them to one another in the depths of you soul? John 1: “In the beginning was the word,……….” Go back and read the OT and every time it says, “the Lord said, or the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, or the Lord smote, etc”, substitute the name Jesus for “the Lord”. If the claims of the New Testament writers about who Jesus was and what he said are true, that should be no problem, should it? He was there in the beginning with the Father and was part and parcel to all that was done is his name.

Just wanted to put in a response I never got around to in case this posts. Wally

The unspoken message is to judge God by our standards. We are saying that “IF God is loving, then He would act as we would expect Him to.”

I began to begin to understand the answer to this question when I rephrased it. SINCE God is love and is loving, why did God do what He did in the Old Testament? Our first step to understanding is to first accept that He alone is God. If I began by defining Him, I begin not with the Living God, but with an idol in my mind. So to begin I believe one must start with who He says He is. And, I make the adjustment, not Him.

Perhaps another question is due: Why was it necessary for a loving God to send His own Son to the cross? And, what was it about the state of humanity that made it necessary, such that Jesus went willingly, even though He pleaded with His Father that if it be possible to let this cup pass from Him? The implications of this are great. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes will not perish but have eternal life.” He goes on to say that the world is already condemned as it follows the self-will inheritance of Adam. Mankind does not readily accept this. Israel did not despite a history of profound demonstrations of God’s power and mercy. Left to their self rule they quickly and continually fell into abominations that they would have believed to have been unthinkable. What does it take to demonstrate the seriousness of our condition?

Only a change in perspective brought out in humility and enlightened by the Holy Spirit will ever answer this question. God need not justify Himself to His creatures, nor will He. But he rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Job 38:1-7
(1) Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
(2) “Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge?
(3) “Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
(4) “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding,
(5) Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it?
(6) “On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
(7) When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? ………

Job 40:1-8
(1) Then the LORD said to Job,
(2) “Will the faultfinder contend with the Almighty? Let him who reproves God answer it.”
(3) Then Job answered the LORD and said,
(4) “Behold, I am insignificant; what can I reply to You? I lay my hand on my mouth.
(5) “Once I have spoken, and I will not answer; Even twice, and I will add nothing more.”
(6) Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm and said,
(7) “Now gird up your loins like a man; I will ask you, and you instruct Me.
(8) “Will you really annul My judgment? Will you condemn Me that you may be justified? ………..

Job 42:1-6
(1) Then Job answered the LORD and said,
(2) “I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
(3) ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ “Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.”
(4) ‘Hear, now, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me.’
(5) “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You;
(6) Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes.”

Who is this God who took away so many things I once held dear? The Living God. “I have heard of you by the hearing of the ear (as I was taught by men who do not know you); But now my eye sees you” and how could I have ever imagined that you should answer to me, and at the same time who could have imagined that you would allow me into Your Presence. You alone are God, You alone are the Most High. There is no other. Abba, Father, You do all things well. Forgive us and have mercy, for we are but little children.

But, I don’t see that anyone has addressed your real concern which is that you find it deeply disturbing that not only did Israel believe they were the Chosen People, but there are many instances of complete ruthlessness to gain adavantage, which in the flesh one can understand, but these were directions given by God. In at least one instance when they took the land god had given them, they were instructed to kill every living thing, including women children and animals!

There are actually two parts to my answer. The first must be seen on the material level. It was simply survival of the fittest. We see this same story from every major civilization and culture, they build their kingdoms on the blood of those they conquer. You cannot look at the past with the sensivitities of today. The reason we can even be secure enough to contemplate our sensitivity and moral relativism is because of the luxury we live in. We are so removed from the realities of survivial that the rest of the world faces is that our poor people are fat! Back in the times of those stories, people existed in honor cultures. They would rather die than be humiliated. If Israel had not been as brutal and thorough as they were, they never would have survived. Perhaps you think god could have waved his hand and made Israels enemies fall over, or changed their hearts to be more tolerant… but god is a god of laws, like physics. The Sins of the Fathers are visited on the children, not becasue God is vengeant, but because it is the natural consequence. God wanted Israel to use brute force, so that they would not have as much trouble with the rest of their enemies. You know what they say, the best defense of a good offense.

On a spiritual level, god raises up kingdoms and brings them down. He will use one force to discipline another. Again natural consequences. Societies function better with certain rules, and when those rules are disregarded as antiquated, the societies collapse and are made vulnerable to the hungrier more brutal forces waiting outside the gate. There is no doubt that a belief that god is on your side is an enormous boost to the warrior. So, while you are thinking that you do not want to be associated with a god that condones brutality in war, just think where you might be today if Israel had not survived all those years ago.

The bible they say they believe in, teaches us: “But the anointing which ye have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him” (1 Jn 2:27). Paul also tells us in II Cor. 3 that “The letter kills, but the spirit gives life”. So why do we Christians spend all our time in the letter and so little just being with God, listening to God, waiting on God, that God might teach us through the Holy Spirit what we should understand and what we should do?

The bible says many things, including that it has the power to kill the spirit (“the letter kills”). Those who focus on the its letters, no matter how inspired (which I believe they are), those who spend time wrangling over it’s words, who believe those words to be inerrant and infallible, are to be pitied indeed. They are carnal men full of ignorance about spiritual matters.

Of such men I can only agree with Jesus, “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in”.

That which is central to the hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees is their wrangling about words, their focus on scriptures, their deep seated carnal view of spirituality. Jesus tells us to go into our closets alone when we pray, but the Pharisees made a pretence of prayer and did it in front of men that they might think them the more spiritual… just as our spiritual leaders do today. Jesus said that what was most important for our entrance into the kingdom of heaven was whether or not we loved one another and helped those who needed us most… the widows, the orphans, the prisoners, the hungry. But that is not the focus of our pastoral leaders and their sermons. Rather they focus on a right understanding of the scriptures, that we should believe as their denomination teaches.

Jesus told us that we are to learn how to abide in him, so that we might be one with the Father as he is one with the father. Jesus tells us he longs for us to share the same glory he has been given by the Father: “And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one” (Jn 17:22). When was the last time you heard a sermon on learning how to abide in Jesus, how to be one with Jesus and with God, or how to obtain that glory that both Jesus and Paul taught is our birthright (see what Paul says about this glory to glory transformation in II Cor. 3:15-18)?

This is what it means to enter the kingdom of God, to be in prayerful meditation for an hour or more, until all the busy-ness subsides and the spirit can break through our carnal nature. This is how we obtain that glory to glory transformation, wherein it is like looking in a mirror and seeing Jesus in his glory instead of ourself, and thereby being transformed, from glory to glory (II Cor. 3:18).

Such understandings are what the Holy Spirit teaches us, they are “spiritually discerned”. However, today our congregations are full of carnal Christians who have not been taught how to abide in Jesus, how to have the mind of Christ. How could it be otherwise? Today’s so-called men of God were themselves taught by other so-called men of God, and all of them focused on the letter, not on the Spirit. They went to schools to get book learning, not learn how to partake in God’s glory and be transformed by the holiness of God’s presence. There are no classes in bible schools or seminaries about learning to “abide in Jesus”. There are no classes teaching them to “be still and know God”. And so it is that those who lead our congregations today are like the Pharisees. They are unable to enter into this spiritual kingdom. And so it is that they likewise “shut up the kingdom of heaven” from those they lead and teach.

Everyone just wants to be given the answers. That in itself is our carnal nature taking control. The bible schools and seminaries feed this carnal need. They care more about rightness of one’s beliefs than they do about righteousness of one’s actions. In my mind righteousness comes when we focus on obeying Jesus’ most important command, to “Love one another as I have loved you”. That is the essence of the spirit which Jesus Christ brings to us, even today, if we would but take the time to get to know him.

Hear his timeless call in John 14:15-17: “If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but ye know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you”.

For more writings along this line: http://www.3circles.org/transform

Thanks for writing your letter. Since you are still involved in the church and your leaving is “unfinished” I wonder if you can try and find some others involved in your church who have the same doubts/frustrations with the Hebrew scriptures and talk with them about it (if you already haven’t done so). I am willing to bet you are not alone, even in the church.