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Archive for July, 2007

Lord do i have to go back to church

Published by

howabout

at July 31, 2007 in Letters. 2 Comments

Geez, I thought my past life was bad which was one of the reasons i became saved. After experiencing the church, the world is not so bad after all. At this point, I have lost most of my faith and am a lone ranger with no desire to set foot in a church again. I watch church on TV and that makes it a safe place. As far as the “world” is concerned its not that bad at all really because unbelievers can show just as much love and honor friendships and they know how to be “cool.”

How i got to this point is from basically the legalism experience in the church. Mostly the judgementalism and pushing to do works was a major factor why the church can be abusive. I read the book “subtle power of spiritual abuse” and all the things mentioned in that book happened to me. And you all know about those annoying looks and turned up noses you get when you say something wrong among christians which also made church irritating.

Really i just want to puke after thinking why I stayed so long in this environment. It was a Baptist church. Actually, a non-denominational church with the Baptist name taken off which seems to be very popular these days to get people sucked into their way of thinking.

The first few years were not so bad but those “encouragers” as they like to call themselves begin making those advancements at you to get you to be more involved. Probably not encouragers but “antagonists”who were not happy with my performance.I know it may seem okay to do to someone because its for the advancement of the kingdom but after a while, the phone calls, verbal jabs, and many invitations to do works/bible study; it begins to wear you down and you feel like your a bad christian for not participating in bringing people into “their church , or what they call to ‘grow spiritually’ while in the community of believers in a bible study.” After years of this i started to become angry and actually began to develop an anger problem and usually leaving upset after an activitiy as someone usually took a verbal jab at my spiritual life. Even one time a few girls did not even want me to sit at thier table while in a restaraunt and told me to sit elsewhere. They denied it ever happened when asked about it later though they may have forgot about it but i did not.

Soon i began to feel like this was wrong and not so loving atmosphere so i told the senior pastor that i did not like people getting into my personal life and it really was spiritual abuse. And i made the mistake of telling the senior pastor that i did not like him putting down other denominations and i did not consider myself a “weak christian” as what was implied if you were not doing mega works for God. I felt that I led just as much as a moral life as someone who did a lot of works for God and other denominations are just as good as this church. Also, i mentioned that people would not respect my desire to be more of a laid back christian and the associate pastor had taken many of the verbal jabs at me over the years at not being involved enough.

Well, this led the way for a cascade of correction to come my way as my confindentiallity was violated and the letter given to the associate pastor and a letter written by the associate pastor was sent to my home listing all my sins that i had done over the years and my claims were unsubstantied about what happened to me and i need to correct my critical attitude if i was to continue to attend there. Also, at the adult group meeting the associate pastor asked what was going on with me and of course more dirt was dug up on me in my life at the time by the other people in the adult group and even one of my best friends in the group told the pastor that i had been doing a certain sin, which should have been left between me and my friend, who felt very high and mighty since he was a deacon at the time. Also, the adult group leader was told about this sin and he gave a copy of a email between me and him where the group leader suggested that i stop doing this sin and i agreed to stop doing it and confessed it and also talked about how i felt the group was abusive. So it was a big mess where i was basically was royally screwed, burned, back stabbed, confidentiality violated by people who i knew for some 9 years that i thought were christians and even decent friends. A month later my name was on a memo for the monthly business meeting for me to be removed from membership.

Well, after reciving the letter at my home from the associate pastor i went off/ very angry in many phone calls to his house and the police came and told me that it would be trespassing if i ever went to that church again. I have tried to attend church other places but it wont stick as my faith is almost gone and to be in church brings back all these bad memories. I have probably been marked as a bad guy as Pastors, who like to stick together, like to mark people in there area; i would assume cuz of how blown up this incident got. I dont see any of the people in my old church as I never heard from them again nor do i really ever want to. And i think they feel i have no desire to ever set foot in thier church so i imagine this is why the lack of contact and no apologies were made from them to me nor did i apologize to them for anything except i did send out some e-mails to try and get them to leave me alone but, of course, they would never respect you since your not a good christian if your not involved so some e-mails were aggressive by me and i apologized for it.

About church, all they talk about in church is service, service, service and give more money. I have had enough of it really.

So some 5 years later, it still hurts me very much what happened and really dont trust christians or pastors. This church had Pastors that were there for some 20 years so i feel they knew how to play the church game and to usher out any dissidents quickly or try to pound them back into submission quickly. And they knew how to put ”yes men” on the deacon board. With Jesus as the judge, it would be interesting to see if it was not one of the most corrupt churchs in my state or the US for that matter. The senior pastor was very authoritarian and has burned other people as well as i am meeting others in the world who got burned by him and i hang out with two of them now who formely went to that church

. But after reading the stories on this site which i am thankful for that this kind of thing happens regularly among christians. Which is why i have left the church for maybe the rest of my life and now back into my old ways as the world seems to be just as loving if not better then the church.

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Free to fellowship with every child of God

Published by

offscouring

at July 18, 2007 in Letters. 1 Comment

:First of all I would like to thank you for this forum,

It is indeed a pleasure and a priviledge to share my experience and the liberty I have found in a personal relationship with my Savior, Priest, and King; Jesus the Christ. Who has redeemed all mankind from the curse of bondage resulting from the teaching of those who would profit by speading fear and misery. It is our responsibility to go out and tell everyone who will listen. We are free! free! free indeed! It has pleased the Father to remove the handwritting of old ordinances, which work against us. And deliver us unto His sweet fellowship through the sacrifice of His dear son.

The church house crowd crucified our Lord and they continue to crucify ever child of God who will separate themselves from the machinations of bondage unto His glorious light.

There is an adage common to society that says the more things change, the more they actually remain the same. This concept is never more true than concerning religion. The very definition of religion is to “rebind” or “re-league”. In order to re-bind or re-league, one must first be free from a bondage or a league. In this letter I am addressing the re-binding of the souls of men to a system of laws which constrain the Spirit to be subservient to aberrations of fear, I.E. retribution by the divine. In the beginning God created man in His image and His likeness FOR HIS GOOD PLEASURE. That is, God, The Divine Creator, (imaged) imagined an entity that would possess the same attributes as Itself for the express purpose of GOOD PLEASURE. This good pleasure was that this new creation was to fellowship with the Divine, and minister to the needs of that which had been created. That is, to maintain an order of harmony in nature, thereby having part in the endeavor of the Divine to express himself through mankind. Man was given authority over all creation. Man was absolute in his determination. Whatever man chose was indeed an expression of the will which was given him by the creator. Now the Divine had previously created all that was and called it Good. The entire created universe was manifest for habitation by the representative of the Divine: Man. In the beginning, man was at one with God. They walked together in the midst of the creation; they talked together on a personal intimate level. In effect, man and his creator were indeed of one mind and one accord. All was well, and it was good.

Man was given absolute caprice. With this came the wisdom of discernment and a love for his creator. Mankind was the divine, incarnate manifestation of fellowship with God and nature, the link between God and his creation

This enlightened creation pondered the nature of his existence and the operation of the environment of his domain. He began to realize the vastness of his responsibility and the possibility of chaos if he failed to minister his authority properly (seemingly unaware that The Divine was always at hand to mend any disharmony).. All was well indeed until the day came when mankind, pondering the nature of his existence, came up with the idea that seemed logical on the outside and reasonable to anyone who had eyes to see. The conclusion of this self-examination seemed to reveal that mankind was evidently a created being, a part of nature, physically not that much different than the beasts, and obviously had the same basic instincts. Upon further examination of mankind and his role as caretaker of the natural environment, it seemed that God had at least to some degree abandoned the program, and left man and nature to themselves. With this in mind, man realized that his choices had a definite impact on the results that would affect themselves and the environment. Man began to see himself as part of nature, apart from the Divine. His judgments became more practical and pragmatic. Mankind became his own judge, in that he began to make evaluations concerning his behavior. Heretofore, his behavior was of course divine, because he identified himself as the offspring of the Divine. Once he determined he was a separate entity, he became aware that there were certain guidelines that needed to be established to control his natural instincts. Ergo, the concept of right and wrong, and good and evil begin to develop, and a whole new system of ideas and perspectives became the norm. Instead of desiring to please his Father, mankind began to set up parameters whereby he would recognize “this thing is of God, and this thing is of man.” There must obviously be a separation between the two, so one thing was labeled good and the other evil. )

This was the first religious system; and resulted in man being separated from his divine origin. From there mankind continued to build upon the concept of dualism to the point that God Himself was believed to possess the same depraved quality as man, in that God would judge any man who failed to adhere to the new system, and exile those disobedient to an eternity of suffering.

Whole societies were formed with government overseers installed to assure that the people obeyed those who created the system (PRIESTS). It was feared that if anyone person would be disobedient that the whole population would suffer the retribution of the Divine. Inasmuch as fears and superstitions began to possess the people, the pastors waxed ever more powerful. The ministers of the religion were indeed the only intercessors between God and man; without them there was no hope of being saved from eternal damnation from an angry, jealous God. The bondage grew greater as time progressed to the point that anyone who was suspected by the clergy of being a heretic was executed and became an example for the rest. The pastors, preachers, priests, clergy, etc. etc. became the rulers of the people. The religious leaders controlled trade, traditions, travel, and every other element of society. The first human government was a religion. The religious leaders led the people through pride and prejudice. People became unsettled with some aspects of the religion and began to obey strange doctrines. These doctrines became a point of contention between those of the ruling class (priests) and the subservients. The rulers at long last decided that the people must have their way. So they established a religion for every bent and belief that society chose, and called them by the name of the persons who were prominent in promoting that sect. Every religious leader was given access to his government representative. Every leader in effect became a liaison of the government to the people. The cleric had power to marry, bury, baptise, and was deemed a reliable wittness at litigation. This created an illusion of separation which was pleasing to the populations. It seemed that the people indeed had a choice, and freedom to exercise that choice, when indeed they were only allowed to follow the carrot just beyond the reach of the stick. It seems, as historical records reveal, that every population experienced some similar evolution, with few exceptions here and there.

——————————– ENTER JESUS THE CHRIST————————————

Jesus came preaching and teaching that we are indeed the children of the Divine and we are one with the Devine. Jesus taught that we are each priests and kings, whom have direct access to the creator, without caveat or condition.

Jesus came to set the captives free. Jesus came to destroy old superstitions and traditions which kept the souls of men in bondage to the old religious systems. The scriptures tell us that the letter of the law kills, but the Spirit gives life. We are accountable to God alone in that God is our only Father. If God is our Father, then all men everywhere are our brothers; therefore, we are all one in Christ Jesus our Brother, Saviour, and Priest. It is that Spirit of Christ that lighteth every man who comes into the world that unites us and makes us to love one another. Jesus was crucified for the justification of all men; therefore, we need no system to rectify our depravity. We need no man to teach us but the Spirit of God only. We indeed are become what we were created (the offspring of the Divine).

——————————ENTER RELIGION AGAIN————————————- Many may not realize that the word in the Bible, translated “CHURCH”, is NOT the correct word in the Bible! The word falsely translated “church” is really the Greek word “EKKLESIA”, which means “CALLED OUT”!! The word “church” is the SAME ancient word that was used in PAGANISM hundreds of years before Jesus Christ! The word “church” is from the pagan word “kirk, kirke, circ, circe, circle, circus, etc.”, not kyriake! THIS INFORMATION IS READILY FOUND FOR ALL WHO CARE TO CHECK!

Same old same old. There are wolves in sheep clothes among us who would market their same old concept of separation and dualisms with fear to a hoi polloi which has become inebriated on the lust of the flesh, hoping to grasp some semblance of spirituality before they meet death and have to face an angry God.

There is only one religion in the world, one fear in the world, and one priesthood bent on capitalizing on, and marketing that fear for their own exaltation and profit. Religion has many masks but only one face. Its face is the face of death. Yet its masks are of joy, contentment, reconciliation, salvation, hope, and every good thing man may imagine. Just as the tree of knowledge appeared in the midst of the Garden to the first couple, religion bears every conceivable desirable fruit, yet it is poison through and through. The names of religion are innumerable and its masks are infinitely complex, even as to seem to oppose themselves. Religious factions even go to war killing off there adherents in mass conflicts, declaring it is the will of God. ————————-ENTER JESUS CHRIST———————————

The prince of Peace.the one mediator between God and man.Christ in us is our hope of Glory.

If Jesus Christ is Devine, And His Spirit lives in us, Are we not also Devine, inasmuch as Jesus The Christ?

If Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God, and He is the light that lighteth every man who comes into the world!

Are not all men indeed begotten of the Father? Being the only manifestation of the Godhead, in creation.

___________________________________________________________

Jesus came to set us free from the bondage of fear that re-binding has put upon us.

Come out from among them and be not partakers of their iniquities.

Perfect love casts out fear.

Geat peace have they who love God’s law, and nothing shall offend them.

It is the Glory of kings to seach out the mysteries of God.

——————————————————————————————————–

dan

dnly@wildblue.net

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Leaving “The Church”

Published by

sharris1026

at July 15, 2007 in Letters. 36 Comments

Looking back throughout my childhood and teen years, I realize it was always called “The Church,” as I suppose most churches are called which promote themselves as the one true organization representing Christ on earth. Not only did it profess to be Christ’s sole representative, but it professed itself to be the only church which CONTAINED Christ, the only church in which Jesus could be found. From my perspective NOW, I can see this as nothing but preposterous, even blasphemous. It’s the equivalent of saying that our body encompasses and directs our head. In effect, churches which set themselves up as the sole operatives of Christ do that very thing, attempt to put him in a box and make Him subject to their dictates, thereby creating a “headless” body, usurping the authority of Jesus and setting their institutions up as false gods to be worshipped by unsuspecting souls. There is no greater abomination than to take the very name of Jesus Christ, the One who came to set captives free, and use it to entrap souls of men.

Entrapped I was. For thirty-four years I bought into the lie that there was only one true “church” on earth, only one church in which Jesus could be found. For thirty-four years I believed that Christ’s church was a visible entity, and was assigned a particular name, and for those outside of that organization, that ”ark of safety,” certain damnation awaited. The “ark of safety” sailed away without me when I was twenty-years-old and married a man outside of that church. I married in blissful ignorance, under the assumption that he and I would each continue going to our own separate churches, and I could continue to be in God’s favor by attending His “one true church.” However, my bliss was shortlived, as was my ignorance. I awoke to harsh reality when I was forced to make a choice between my husband and my church. I chose my husband, but I was damned in doing so. By walking away from my church, away from the god of my youth, I also believed I was walking away from God Himself. I believed I had lost all chance of redemption, and could only look forward to a fiery hell, as I had always been taught. My life became a living hell as I lived in dread of the day when I believed I would have to pay for my “crime” of leaving “the church.” For fourteen years, I lived in unremitting and debilitating fear to a degree which most people cannot even begin to conceive of. For all of those fourteen years I still believed that salvation was only to be found in that one church, and I was not a part of it. I tried to find others ways of looking at scriptures which might indicate some possibility of other churches being “okay,” but because of the deep level of my childhood indoctrination, I could see no interpretation for scriptures other than what I’d been previously taught. I was an emotional and spiritual cripple, lost and undone, with fear ruling my life. But to my joy, July 4th, 1995 became my personal Independence Day. God chose that day to reveal His unconditional love to me, bringing me to my knees with the overwhelming realization that He loved me in spite of anything I could ever do, and in spite of anything I had NOT done. He showed me that I was totally unworthy of His goodness no matter what church I attended or did NOT attend, and my unworthiness is WHY Jesus died. Oh, my GOD!!! I could NEVER be good enough, no matter how hard I tried. Jesus does it in my place! I was free!!! My church had taught me the ultimate lie, that I might be able to be good enough if I tried hard enough. They made the sacrifice of God of no effect. Jesus died in vain for those who believe they might be able to be good enough to measure up to God’s standards.

With my liberty came freedom from fear in the realization that I am in Christ’s True Church no matter where I am at on earth because I am trusting in HIM for salvation, NOT an earthly organization. His Kingdom is not of this world, yet men with their earthly organizations try to make it so. BLASPHEMY!!!

With my liberty, too, came great anger toward the earthly church which I was raised in. Anger that I had been lied to and had bought into the deception for so many years, anger for the years the “locusts had eaten.” I began “trying out” other churches, churches which taught “salvation by grace, through faith.” I thought perhaps they had a better fix on Christianity because they didn’t openly teach from the pulpit that they were the “one true church.” I soon realized the sad truth, though. No matter what doctrinal differences they espoused, every church promoted itself as a saving institution, a “vehicle of salvation.” You’d better be there if you wanted to be “right with God,” and if you weren’t there, or in some other church, hell would await you. Condemnation and fear-mongering control tactics were practiced by one and all. Jesus came to set captives FREE, free to serve Him motivated solely by love, not to be made slaves to institutions which bear His name in vain!

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So…am I a heathen now?

Published by

yes_istillloveGod

at July 15, 2007 in Letters. 0 Comments

Former (or current) Church Goers of (Unmentioned) Church:

As some of you may know I grew up in the church. I loved it and my fellow members while I was young and even going into Junior High. Once hitting High School new members came into the group that also attended my School. While this would normally not be an issue but a gain it became more of a problem than I thought it would. I kept certain friends at school who were Christians that were struggling with their faith, attendance at their own church, and their one-on-one relationship with Christ. Being around this said person in hopes of lifting a fellow believer only looked as though I was hanging with the “wrong crowd” to a few certain members in the group. What upsets me most is it was brought back into the H.S. Group and spread causing the group to socially turn in a way. No one bothered to ask me if I was doing ok or what was going on, they just chose to believe what they heard from a fellow “Model Christian”.

I attended sporadically for the remainder of High School and into my first year of College Group where I just never really felt a connection. I always felt unable to fully connect with anyone in the group. I began only attending with my family (who still attends regularly) on holidays or special occasions. I began to drift further and further away from the church yet not from God. I still have my beliefs and my convictions but they are no longer what the church has taught me all those years were wrong or right. I began attending another church that a very close friend of mine attended. While this person goes in with a little of reserve (knowing what has happened in the church before) I realized I did miss worshiping with fellow Lovers of Christ. Just not enough to where I am willing to put up with ridicule if I can’t make it a few Sundays because Life is happening around me.

While I miss Church at times, and some of the relationships it brought to me I have found myself grateful for the place of business I work at to which we have staff devotionals and praise time. It gives me a Church like feel without the Church/Childish Drama that seems to come with every church I attempt to attend.It is my hope that one day as a Church you will be able to stop looking solely as to what a member is or isn’t doing for the church itself and look more at the person and who they are and what they are doing for Christ - because isn’t that the main person we all need to be focused on pleasing?

p.s. I find it interesting that while i grew up with many of you there is only 1 person i can think of that continues to call and keep in touch with me. No one else even bothers. Which is fine i guess…just don’t talk about me behind my back as you see me in public and pretend not to notice me until you have to! What an example huh…

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Life outside the church walls

Published by

messychristian

at July 5, 2007 in Letters. 4 Comments

Answering the question, “Why did you leave the church?” is a frustrating experience for me because most of the time, people don’t listen to what I have to say. Instead, they presume a lot of things about me. Better, they are very sure what they’re saying about me is right – it’s just that I don’t want to listen or have not realised it myself, which is why I find the post by godlessgrrl, I wish for ears to listen so spot on.

But still, I love the fact that sites like these exist because people who have left the institutional church (IC) are often treated like outsiders, pariahs or hell, even traitors, by people inside the IC. They need a safe place to talk about their decision.

My faith story is a long, complicated one, and can be read here. But you’d be interested to know that I spent the first five years as a Christian outside the IC, not attending Sunday services. Later, I was involved with a mega church where I served as Sunday School teacher, worship team member and the women ministry’s newsletter’s editor. I left that megachurch when bad teaching crept in and when I realised that the cell group I was under was spiritually abusive. I joined another church but left when I realised that once “you’ve taken the red pill”, there’s no going back. I’ve seen what an illusion this “doing church” thing is, and I realise that me participating in Sunday services and ministries will not get me what I want: Real relationships. When I realise that, the activities became meaningless.

When I was in IC, I find my relationships there will grow weaker and weaker until I become a stranger when I stop doing my churchy things. I’m perplexed. Shouldn’t they still be my friends if I’m not around?And I realise then that one is obligated to do these activities in order to be included and accepted. It made me ill to realise that these people will only be my “friends” if I do the same things they do. Sometimes, I even have to change my personality to fit in. Their “love” was conditional. Community of God? Bulls***!

(After leaving the two churches, most of my friends in the churches have ceased to contact me even after me calling them once in a while. It’s understandable since I’m not in the same church club. [sarcasm])

What’s worse: the leadership will put the organisation above the needs of the ordinary people. Time and time again I have been told that a church leader cannot be disciplined thanks to the politics in the church. How often have I witnessed a hurt church member ignored as the person who had hurt her/him go unpunished? Yet, church leaders keep telling me that it’s the way things are and I just don’t get it. I couldn’t abide by that! Why have we made “doing the right thing” so complicated?

But wait, you need to attend Sunday Services because you need to worship God! Hello, we attend church not for people but for God!

Um, perhaps this is due to the fact that I spent the five years outside the IC, but I have never associated Sunday Services as “worship God time”. To me, “worship God time” is everywhere and anywhere.

I realise that life outside the institutional church isn’t as horrible as they’ve warned us. In fact, I find it more refreshing and challenging. In the institutional church I was passive; I was fed relationships and beliefs and told what to do to serve. But outside, I have to be proactive. Making friends is more of an effort, but more fulfilling because I’m getting to know them because I want to know them, not because I serve in the same ministry.

I find out that the Lord will always have things for you to do outside the IC. But they’re often not on the IC’s grandiose levels. There are no mega worship presentations in stadiums to organise. Instead, serving could mean visiting a single mum with three kids to cheer her up, selling wares at the jumble sale to raise money for the local women’s shelter or even walking the dogs at the animal shelter. It’s exciting to look for opportunities to serve rather than wait for them to be announced on the church bulletin board.

I study more about God not just by doing my devotions and reading the Bible every day slavishly (which I don’t do) but through discussions with Christians and non-Christians, by reading articles of bloggers and Christian writers, and yes, by ocassionally pondering Scripture.

Now that I’ve tasted what it’s like to be on the outside, I don’t understand why I should return inside, where I’ll be rendered passive again. I don’t want to just do the obligatory once-a-year visit to the orphanage. I want to do more. I’m also unwilling to stay silent and look away when I witness an abuse because I’m told that it’s not my place nor do I have the appropriate rank to do so.

Of course you can do more and still attend Sunday services and cell groups (of course!) people argue. But I will say this: I don’t understand how hearing someone talk for an hour, sing a couple of songs and then leave (after, if you’re lucky, a few superficial conversations with fellow church members) is beneficial.

As a busy professional, I rather be doing something more productive with the time, as harsh it may sound.

But that doesn’t mean I’ll never step through church doors ever again. I do visit friends’ churches to enjoy being there with them at a time they consider meaningful. I may not share their connection with the IC, but I certainly do not condemn them for it.

Well, I hope somehow that this enlightens you somewhat about why some of us leave the IC. And I pray … please listen.

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