Looking back throughout my childhood and teen years, I realize it was always called “The Church,” as I suppose most churches are called which promote themselves as the one true organization representing Christ on earth. Not only did it profess to be Christ’s sole representative, but it professed itself to be the only church which CONTAINED Christ, the only church in which Jesus could be found. From my perspective NOW, I can see this as nothing but preposterous, even blasphemous. It’s the equivalent of saying that our body encompasses and directs our head. In effect, churches which set themselves up as the sole operatives of Christ do that very thing, attempt to put him in a box and make Him subject to their dictates, thereby creating a “headless” body, usurping the authority of Jesus and setting their institutions up as false gods to be worshipped by unsuspecting souls. There is no greater abomination than to take the very name of Jesus Christ, the One who came to set captives free, and use it to entrap souls of men.
Entrapped I was. For thirty-four years I bought into the lie that there was only one true “church” on earth, only one church in which Jesus could be found. For thirty-four years I believed that Christ’s church was a visible entity, and was assigned a particular name, and for those outside of that organization, that ”ark of safety,” certain damnation awaited. The “ark of safety” sailed away without me when I was twenty-years-old and married a man outside of that church. I married in blissful ignorance, under the assumption that he and I would each continue going to our own separate churches, and I could continue to be in God’s favor by attending His “one true church.” However, my bliss was shortlived, as was my ignorance. I awoke to harsh reality when I was forced to make a choice between my husband and my church. I chose my husband, but I was damned in doing so. By walking away from my church, away from the god of my youth, I also believed I was walking away from God Himself. I believed I had lost all chance of redemption, and could only look forward to a fiery hell, as I had always been taught. My life became a living hell as I lived in dread of the day when I believed I would have to pay for my “crime” of leaving “the church.” For fourteen years, I lived in unremitting and debilitating fear to a degree which most people cannot even begin to conceive of. For all of those fourteen years I still believed that salvation was only to be found in that one church, and I was not a part of it. I tried to find others ways of looking at scriptures which might indicate some possibility of other churches being “okay,” but because of the deep level of my childhood indoctrination, I could see no interpretation for scriptures other than what I’d been previously taught. I was an emotional and spiritual cripple, lost and undone, with fear ruling my life. But to my joy, July 4th, 1995 became my personal Independence Day. God chose that day to reveal His unconditional love to me, bringing me to my knees with the overwhelming realization that He loved me in spite of anything I could ever do, and in spite of anything I had NOT done. He showed me that I was totally unworthy of His goodness no matter what church I attended or did NOT attend, and my unworthiness is WHY Jesus died. Oh, my GOD!!! I could NEVER be good enough, no matter how hard I tried. Jesus does it in my place! I was free!!! My church had taught me the ultimate lie, that I might be able to be good enough if I tried hard enough. They made the sacrifice of God of no effect. Jesus died in vain for those who believe they might be able to be good enough to measure up to God’s standards.
With my liberty came freedom from fear in the realization that I am in Christ’s True Church no matter where I am at on earth because I am trusting in HIM for salvation, NOT an earthly organization. His Kingdom is not of this world, yet men with their earthly organizations try to make it so. BLASPHEMY!!!
With my liberty, too, came great anger toward the earthly church which I was raised in. Anger that I had been lied to and had bought into the deception for so many years, anger for the years the “locusts had eaten.” I began “trying out” other churches, churches which taught “salvation by grace, through faith.” I thought perhaps they had a better fix on Christianity because they didn’t openly teach from the pulpit that they were the “one true church.” I soon realized the sad truth, though. No matter what doctrinal differences they espoused, every church promoted itself as a saving institution, a “vehicle of salvation.” You’d better be there if you wanted to be “right with God,” and if you weren’t there, or in some other church, hell would await you. Condemnation and fear-mongering control tactics were practiced by one and all. Jesus came to set captives FREE, free to serve Him motivated solely by love, not to be made slaves to institutions which bear His name in vain!
36 comments
Jul 16, 2007
underthegrace says:
How sad that so many churches give adherents the impression overtly or covertly that they are God’s sole representatives on earth.
My story is somewhat similar to yours. The great thing is that I’ve realized that I’m saved not because I attend a meeting in a certain building but because Jesus’ finished work on the cross is enough for me.
It’s reassuring to know that there are others who see that Christ’s work is enough.
Jul 16, 2007
patrobus says:
It is sad that so many churches seem to struggle getting it right, and I am soooo glad you finally found freedom through Christ.
I guess if they all got it right we wouldn’t need most of the New Testament as it is designed to assist us in how to do this thing called church.
Jesus said He would build His church and Paul laid out the guidelines for how we were to work together as the body of Christ. I believe this relates both to the church universal, all people saved, and to the local body of believers meeting together in what we now call the church.
Paul said we needed each other to be complete and to fulfill what God has called us to accomplish. As imperfect as most of our churches are, they are necessary if God is to be believed and His kindgodom is to prosper.
I pray you will be enlightened by the Holy Spirit and led to the church God has planned for you to serve. Without you it is incomplete.
Jul 19, 2007
offscouring says:
The true nature of a thing and it’s real virtue is always determined by it’s origin.
The origin of churchianity, is founded upon the struggle of depravity to create a devine source designed in the image of mankind.
Ergo religion has at it’s fundamental core darkness and fear. Superstition is the cloth that covers it’s shallowness. The hope of all good churchmen is that their leader has the moral interity they don’t have. Even as the Hebrews in the wilderness feared to meet God on a persoanl level, because they had adopted the egyptian mores of duality and depravity. The Hebrews were as chucrmen are today, basically agnostic.
For this cause they elected to have Mosses to go unto God and see what they were to do. Because of this choice God was wrath against the Hebrews and told Mosses I will destroy the lot of them and start a new nation of chosen people from out of your loins. Mosses entreated God to me merciful to the Hebrews and allow them to evolve spiritually, hopeing they might realize their error and come to God, instead of delegating a proxy.
Evenso and much the moreso, because of the ensample we have in the scripture, Those who expect to find salvation in a system or a sect that suggests that some men are more endowed with the favor of God (annointed) than others, have become ultimately separated from any hope of Spiritual communion. Theirs is stricty a social system which inebriates the soul on a toxin more dreadful and damning than athiesm. At least an atheist is not deluded into believing that he has found salvation.
Church house religion is a drug more powerful than all others. In that it causes sane men to become liers, thieves, and murders. Just look at our History as a people. It was the churchouse crowd that persecuted and killed the prophets of old, crucified our Lord Jesus Christ, and mechandises the souls of men today. Jesus didn’t lead his students to an assembly, Jesus taught the assembly where He found them.
and so may we.
dan
Jul 19, 2007
patrobus says:
Dan,
It is interesting to me that people having a problem with the church, many times don’t truly understand the scripture like they should. It is true the Hebrews asked Moses to speak with God for them. However, this was after God had forbidden them to set foot on Mt. Sinai or see Him lest they die. The awesome presence of God filled them with reverent fear and they obeyed. Many of us in the modern church are seeking an encounter with the same awesome God that filled the Hebrews with fear, and we are seeking to obey Him as best we can. Unfortunately, many people outside the church only want to focus on the failures inside. You put forth the idea in another post that man decided what was good and evil based on his need to control his natural instincts. Obviously, youi do not believe in the Bible or you wouild need to acknowledge tha God decided what was right and wrong, good and evil, and that it began in the Garden with God’s first 2 created beings when they chose to rebell against God through their free will.
I am sorry you have had seemingly such a negative experience with the church and Christianity. God does transform lives through His son Jesus. He restores us to relationship with Himself as He intended in the beginning. We were never created to be divine but to live a life where we can experience God’s presence, where we can love Him and be loved by Him. I hope and pray that you can find this relationship that God intended for you form the beginning.
Rick
Jul 20, 2007
sharris1026 says:
It’s interesting to me that our paradigms concerning “church” are so deeply ingrained that we believe the church is something which can be “left,” or that we can be “outside of the church.” If Jesus is the builder of His Church, and He has promised “never to leave us or forsake us,” then how could we ever possibly be “outside of His Church,” if indeed our faith is truly in Christ only? Let’s face it, the faith of most churchgoers is in “their church.” Sure, they give lip service to the name of Jesus, but a great majority of them are depending upon their attendance and service to a particular institution to save them, when push comes to shove.
Granted, we are called to “not forsake the assembling of ourselves together,” but most people don’t quote beyond that PORTION of the verse. Why not? Because that PORTION is used as leverage, a coercion tactic, against those who question the institution’s viability. The whole reason we are called to assemble is so that we may encourage and exhort one another. If we are bludgeoned into attending by obscene scare tactics, I’m not sure how such an assembly could ever be considered a source of encouragement.
A local assembly is not “the church,” no matter who would like to proclaim it so. I believe Dan, or “Offscouring,” or whatever his name is, may have it right when he declares “church” to be a gross misnomer for the called out Body of Christ. Institutions which are commonly called “churches,” often do exhibit circus-like qualities. They don’t sell tickets for the show, but they do indeed offer bribes whether it be as simple as donuts and coffee, or as extravagant as paid vacations to exotic locales for the top “givers” in the congregation.
Whether I attend an assembly or not makes me no more nor less a member of God’s “true church,” His called out ekklesia. I may, and probably would, be spiritually weaker if I did not assemble with other believers, but who can separate a believer in Christ from His Body? Just because a churchgoer declares a non-churchgoer to be “outside of the Body of Christ,” does that make it so? I think not. “What God has joined together, let no man put asunder.” Thank God, I serve a God who is bigger than the box churchgoers attempt to put Him in!
Jul 21, 2007
offscouring says:
I loath to debate the obvious; yet sometimes we are constrained to answer our brother for the sake of grace.
In the beginning God created mankind and breathed into him the Spirit of Life.
This Spirit of Life was unique to man alone; in that he was not merely an animated (animal) life form but; a living being. A being in whom Life dwelled. It pleased God to create a body within whom He would put HIS SPIRIT, unlike any other created being. Because of this unique creation man alone has the capacity of self awareness, and self determination. Only man can ponder his own nature, His past, present, future and and the purpose of his existence. Only man can make value judgments concerning social, spiritual, and issues concerning the economy of his environment. Only man can experience hate, greed, pride, lust, and only mankind has the capacity to peer into the heavens and contemplate his origin and his eternity. Man is so spiritually endowed as to have even the power to turn a wild beast into a friend to serve him and to became a companion, such as dogs, horses, birds, cows, etc. etc. Mankind imprints upon the animals his own soul, and they reflect the mans personality in as much as they become compatible with man, by mans influence. That my friend is the Spirit of God in us, which empowers us to project our own values upon otherwise dumb beasts.
Those are just a few obvious tangible evidences that man is different than every other life form, however there are more profound subtle attributes that man alone possesses which are indeed Devine. Some of them being that man has an inherant desire to search out the mysteries of his world, to communicate with his creator, to create beauty to ameliorate his senses, to sing songs of hope, glory, dispare, pride, joy, praise, anger, humor, etc. etc. Mankind invents machines to do his bidding for him. Man invents systems to serve him and to bring into subjection his fellow man that he may exalt himself. Man alone will knowingly commit himself to an idea, which will consume his very life for the well being of his community. There are an endless number of characteristics which are exclusive to man, which are traits that identify him as being above, beyond and exceedingly superior to any other created being.
Nevertheless there are those who would fall back on the ancient religious doctrine of dualism, saying that those things which differentiate man from animal do not make us Devine. And; to that I would heartily agree, those things do not make us Devine.
Only God is God indeed, as only the ocean is ocean indeed, only the air is indeed air. so tell me is a cup of water from the ocean any less ocean because of it’s smallness, is the air in your lungs any less the atmosphere we all live in because it is become part of you. Is the Spirit of God in you any less God than God. to deny the Divinity of man is to deny the Spirit of God in man.
On a more fundamental level we find the scriptures are replete with the absolute declaration of man’s relationship to His creator. ergo we are told that Adam was the Son of God. Now if Adam was the Son of God and we are the sons of Adam, are we not evenso the Sons of God as well.
Does not the first chapter of the book of John tell us that as many as believed on his name to them gave he the power to become the Son’s of God.
And what of the numerous occasions the bible refer to us as the children of God, the offsring of God,the family of God.
You see the concept of depravity and separation is not a valid doctrine in any sense of the word. The dualistic teaching of religion is designed to capture and market the souls of men for the purpose of domination by evil men, that deny the grace of God and make of themselves to be God.
Now if that sounds a little contridictive, I want to Clarify the point that we are not indeed God but; we are the children of God so in effect we are of God, from God, and are in God, even as a cup of water is of the ocean, from the ocean, and will certainly return to the ocean given enough time. so we also will return to our creator God, for God is our source and our only desire. As someone so susinctly put it we are Spiritual beings having a human experience.
Christ in us is our hope. Jesus told us that God was our Father. How much more eveidence would a person need to be convinced we are of God.
dan
Jul 22, 2007
gpickren says:
I think Dan understands the scriptures quite well, I would say that he nailed it in his first post and I agree in principle with the second at least as it pertains to man who is regenerate. It is clear that under the new covenant that God is no longer dealing through the flesh of man and outward religious activities, not did He begin with Israel this way until they rejected the voice of the Lord to to them directly. Why should He?
Did Paul not say that the mind set on the flesh does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and that the natural man cannot accept the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him? God declared a new living way.
Heb 8:8-13
(8) For finding fault with them, He says, “BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
(9) NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
(10) “FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
(11) “AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’ FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
(12) “FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”
(13) When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
Rom 8:2-8
(2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
(3) For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
(4) so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
(5) For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
(6) For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
(7) because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
(8) and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Eph 5:1-2
(1) Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;
(2) and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.
Eph 3:14-21
(14) For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
(15) from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,
(16) that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
(17) so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
(18) may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
(19) and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
(20) Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,
(21) to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.
2Pe 1:2-4
(2) Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
(3) seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
(4) For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
It is clear here who is doing the work and it is not men. This is where the church man always says “Yeah, but …..” Religion is a system that depends on many yeah, but’s. What they often say is right, but they do not do what they say. Just like the Pharisees they seat themselves in the seat of Moses and think that because they possess (or know) the scriptures they have eternal life. They agree that we are no longer under the law and then they teach us that we should tithe — to them no less!
Jul 23, 2007
gpickren says:
Received this today which is on point. http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/001951.html
Rereading Dan’s second post and especially his letter posted, it seems to me that it may be reaching some conclusions that are beyond scripture. Nevertheless, our Teacher is fully capable of correcting us in that as well if we go on to know. If He opened our eyes to the nature of religion, He is equally capable of revealing our own error as we take what He has given us and begun to turn it into our own religion. Just because we are “out” does not mean it is out of us. After all, this is exactly how many denominations began. Part of His teaching, however, is allowing us to experience the consequences of our error and while this too is beneficial, it is not pleasant. It is not sufficient to merely come out. We have many letters here testifying that in coming out they not only have left the religious system, they have come out of faith in Christ period. There is a coming out to be sure, but there is also a “coming to” which is Christ, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. The former is of no benefit without the latter.
Heb 13:9-13
(9) Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, through which those who were so occupied were not benefited.
(10) We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat.
(11) For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside the camp.
(12) Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
(13) So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach.
Jul 23, 2007
offscouring says:
gpickren
Jul 23rd, 2007 at 8:38 am
Received this today which is on point. http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/001951.html
Rereading Dan’s second post and especially his letter posted, it seems to me that it may be reaching some conclusions that are beyond scripture
gpickren
Thank you for reading my post.
please expand on reaching beyond scriptures.
I am not prepared to ascert I have arrived at the conclusion of righteousness (truth). I respect a sincere contrasting opinion. Wisdom is received a little here and a litte there. I perceive you are a person with desire for wisdom. Truth is elegant always, whether you find it in the bible or in a life experience. Many passages in scripture are vague until we have evolved Spiritually to a place where experience reveals the context. Ergo the paradigm of churchouse religion is replete with scriptures which on the outset seem to substaniate the concept of a system which mediates salvation.
Yet a personal relationship with our creator reveals the facade that the priests have created.
OOPS! I’m waxing wordy again
dan
Jul 23, 2007
gpickren says:
“Many passages in scripture are vague until we have evolved Spiritually to a place where experience reveals the context.”
This is very true.
Dan, I wasn’t sure what you were concluding about man’s nature and his need for redemption. It sounded like you might be hinting that the Holy Spirit indwells all men. You said, “That my friend is the Spirit of God in us, which empowers us to project our own values upon otherwise dumb beasts.” Certainly all gifts come from God, but it seems a reach to conclude that it is the Spirit of God empowering men to train dumb beasts. Many of the most ungodly of men are fully capable of such.
Since I said I had agreed with so much you said, I thought I should clarify that I did not agree with all of it. However, I didn’t understood what you were saying well enough to agree or disagree.
It is probably most helpful to stay in the topic of this site, that is, why some have opted to leave that which they call the church. On this topic we are in full agreement. The church is not the ekklesia, however, there are still many of the ekklesia in the church. We can leave any church, but that is an entirely different matter than leaving the ekklesia, if indeed we were ever a part of it in the first place.
I also fully agree that there is no meditator between man and God other than Jesus Christ and the focus of this system is offering assurance (or the possibility, depending on the sect) that one will “go to heaven when they die” whereas Jesus and the apostles preached entering the Kingdom of God. And, therefore, for a variety of reasons, as we have seen, many are leaving the system.
Jul 23, 2007
offscouring says:
Dan, I wasn’t sure what you were concluding about man’s nature and his need for redemption. It sounded like you might be hinting that the Holy Spirit indwells all men.
I realize that church teaches one that the Spirit of God dwells exclusively in those whom have give ascent to a confession according to the faith and doctrine prescribed by the sect.
However God gave His Son while we were yet sinners. That is in our condition of unbelief God sought to redeem us unto himself.
WHY?
WHY?
WHY? would God choose a people of unbelief to reconcile unto Himself.
The reason is not so strange as the churchmen would suppose.
We have all become as the prodagal, in our confusion and darkness, we have gone astray, following the affections of our flesh and reckoning ourselves to be something other than the manifestation of the Godhead bodily. The pleasure and obligation we have unto our fellow man is to preach salvation in Christ Jesus, the Man whom singularly possessed absolute awareness of The Spirit Of God in Himself even that Spirit God breathed into our Father the Adam. The One origin and source of humanity whom the Holy Scriptures call in referance to the geneology of Christ the SON of GOD.
If Adam was our father and He was the Son of God, as the scripture say he is. Then who are we but the offspring of Adam.
The only difference in mankind is indeed some are become aware of the indwelling presence of that Light, that Lights EVERY man who comes into the world, and some are lost. Who gets to decide who are children of God and who are not?
The religious crowd have their own unique tests according to their sect.
I dare not judge what man will find the light which differentiates mankind from every other creation.
It is my mission to call men out of form into freedom. That is the whole sum of this blog, as I discern. That is shareing the liberty we have in Christ once we have shed the chains of pretentious piety. Jesus went about setting the captives free. free of darkness free of the illusion of duality. Free to call God our Father. (((BY THE WAY OF COUSE THAT IS REASON THE PRIEST HAD CHRIST KILLED))
indeed If I suppose that some men have not within the the Spirit of our creator, how might such a man ever call God Father?
We become the Son’s of God indeed when we receive the revelation our sonship! That doesn’t come through rites ritual sacrament confession baptism communion sectarian membership or any other operation of the will. Sonship is the conscieousness of Christ in us, makeing us one with the Father even as we have been all along, even in our unbelief.
who among us is qualified to say one man is a child of God and yet another is not. Is not that the very thing that the churchcrowd thrive on. that is includeing some and excludeing others?
Again the position I espouse to be so, is where I am in my Spiritual evolution at this time in my human experience.
I can not be critical of any other persons perspective, because not too long ago (10 years AGO) I was a faithfull Baptist (45 years) who contended agressively for the Baptist faith and doctrine, which seemed resonable to me. I thought I was saved as saved could be. Yet one day I was constrained to forsake every tennant I held dear. And now I know I was in abject bondage to a system which posed as an angel of light, all the while leading it’s minnions into a greater darkness.
Please pardon my spelling.
dan
Jul 23, 2007
gpickren says:
“We become the Son’s of God indeed when we receive the revelation our sonship!”
Gal 1:15-17
(15) But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased
(16) to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
(17) nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and to returned once more to Damascus.
The thing I have a problem with is that you seem to equate the condition of man as a son of Adam, in whom God breathed the breath of life whereupon he became a living soul and a Christian who has been born of the Spirit. It seems this ignores a great deal of scripture. For example, Jesus telling His disciples of the coming of the Holy Spirit, says the Spirit of truth then abode WITH the disciples but would be IN the disciples. That is a very big difference.
Joh 14:16-17
(16) “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
(17) that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
And, of course, the well known words to Nicodemus “Truly, truly I say to you, unless a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
I am quite familiar with Baptist doctrine. I spent 18 years in one. I am not about to argue about what brings on the new birth, because quite frankly, I don’t know. But, I do know this — there is one and God does it. I know that it has little or nothing to do with religious activity and I have become aware of countless conversions where the person had no involvement with anything remotely related to religious practices, yet sometimes even during those it would seem the Holy Spirit chooses to touch someone. As for me, I was doing nothing but trying to pursue my own business interests and the Lord woke me up in the middle of the night just as He intercepted Paul on the road to Damascus.
So, Dan, now that I have some better understanding of what you are saying I am quite perplexed, because a great deal of what you are saying seems right to me, yet, yes, I think you may be going off a good deal beyond the scriptures. Enough at least, it seems to me, that you might at least inquire of the Lord before you actively engage in this as a teaching. This not just a church crowd teaching you are opposing, but a great deal of scripture. Enough at least to make this yet another one of those disputable matters. We have forgiveness of sins by faith in Christ alone, apart from any form of religion, but it seems you are effectively denying the fall and the need for redemption. You weight heavily the scriptures which speak of the sons of God, but what about the words of Jesus to the Pharisees where He said they were of their father the devil? In one sense, the point of whether one has a revelation of the Son in him because He has always been in him as opposed to newly arrived in him via the new birth is, as a practical matter, a moot point. Once one has has a revelation of the Son, he HAS the Son, regardless of when he arrived, and now the matter at hand is who is to be Lord?
Jul 24, 2007
offscouring says:
If indeed man is totally depraved (that is without God). then there is of course no point in trying to evangelize.
However if man is only in a prodical condition, (that is lost to the re-memberance of his true nature).
then The ministry of the Holy Spirit may reveal Christ in us.
to re-mind us of who we are.
Let this mind be in you, as the scripture tell us.
The mind of Christ is thus so.
He thought it not robbery to consider himself EQUAL with God, BUT! made of Himself no reputation and became the servant of all men.
To re-member is to become again a part of something a concept or a mindset.
The most hidious crime ever perpetrated upon mankind was to create a system which would make unto itself members and call that the family of or kingdom God.
They create unto themselves a persona of God that reflects the depraved nature of themselves. That is an angry, jealous, whimsicle, old cantankrous, despot who takes delight in chooseing some men to be his son’s and others to throw into am eternal flameing pit.
I am afraid that this churchianity paradigm has so ingrained itself as to become encumbant in even those who have escaped its grasp.
that is some men are destined or have a bent to become Devine while others are without hope until the system catches up with them.
dan
Jul 24, 2007
gpickren says:
Dan said: “I realize that church teaches one that the Spirit of God dwells exclusively in those whom have give ascent to a confession according to the faith and doctrine prescribed by the sect.”
That may be what some churches teach, but that is not what I said. You keep arguing about what churches teach. I said nothing about any confession or doctrine or method. My question to you is how does what you are proposing square with what Jesus said regarding need for the new birth? If we all have the Spirit then why did Jesus say must we be born again?
Also, if man has always had the Spirit of God and just needed reminding, then why did Jesus have to die?
Jul 24, 2007
offscouring says:
well first of all everything on this blog is primnarily concerned with the church its falacies and the people who have escaped from its bonds.
as per concerning the new birth. How can a man be born again if in fact he was never born to begin with. and if he was indeed born into this diminsion by the Spirit and became lost to his origin then he would in fact be needful to come again to that place from which he was born from. as a matter of metaphor a child is conceived in the womb when the sperm enters the ovum, and is born again when he emerges from that womb.
Both the conception and the delivery are part of its life process evenso when we were created in the imagination and the likeness of God we are sent into this womb of sorts the world of three diminsional reality to gestate so to speak, that we may mature into a perfect man,. knowing that we are from God born of His Spirit from eternity to eternity. Even as the child in the mothers womb is from his parents at conception at birth and even until his death nothing can make that child any more or less a product of his parent. whither or not the child actually develope into a full term birth or whether it matures into an adult or if it become ancient in days. it is the offspring of its bilogical source. so to be born again is merely to come to the knowledge of the fullness of our salvation bought for us by the sacrifice of Christ.
I gotta go to work now.
God Bless
dan
Jul 24, 2007
gpickren says:
Thank you for clearing up your position on the scriptures. Let each man judge for himself.
Jul 24, 2007
sharris1026 says:
I have enjoyed your dialogue, Dan and Glen. I appreciated points both of you made. However, I was a wee bit apprehensive that your discussion might lead to some ruffled feathers, since you didn’t seem to quite see eye-to-eye. I believe we can definitely learn from each other if we are sincere seekers, but it’s also wise to remember the ploy of the enemy: “divide and conquer.” We need each other, especially in this “apart from the mainstream” journey of ours, which can sometimes feel like a wilderness experience.
This website has been a valuable source of encouragement for me, and many others, I’m sure. I can only wonder if the position it is filling in being an encouragement to us “unchurched” people has come as a surprise to those who initiated it. I have a sneaking suspicion it was probably started as a method of peeking into the feeble minds of those who don’t “go to church,” so that effective rebuttals and refutations could be made in response to their “excuses,” perhaps even wooing them back into the fold. Yes, I’m a bit cynical, but I’ve seen all sorts of practices employed toward that endeavor. Nevertheless, I really appreciate this site. Thank again to you guys who created it!
God is good!
Sheila
Jul 25, 2007
gpickren says:
I received this today and it seems to be precisely on this point that we have been discussing. The main difference between Dan’s view and mine is that if I have been following correctly Dan believes we have it in ourselves to be children of God and I believe we do not have it yet ourselves, but that we are completely dependent on God for it. In any event, here is what Austin-Sparks said about this topic.
http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/001952.html
I should also say that I appreciate the politeness of Dan’s disagreement with me. Such disagreements on many websites usually quickly degenerate into spiritual food fights. Dan and I both disagree at this point among ourselves and probably other things as well, yet we both are in agreement concerning our disagreement with much of the teaching of the church we were raised in.
If I become contentious in defending some doctrinal point, my actions betray what I say I believe and that is that I am not saved by my understanding and acceptance of a doctrine or teaching. In the church I heard teaching about Jesus, but I did not know him. But, when I was awakened in the middle of the night, it was not by a teaching, but a Person and that is an enormous difference.
I am saved by my personal faith in the person of Jesus Christ Who I follow, “For I know Whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able, to keep that which I’ve committed unto Him until that day.” It was not my own wisdom and scholarship that led me out of the error that both Dan and I now agree upon, so I am confident that when it pleases the Lord to correct my new errors in understanding He will do so for me and if Dan is yielded to the Lord the same will be true for him. I have been blind and now I see. Perhaps not perfectly and I may be like the blind man in Mark 8 who received a first touch. He saw, but men looked like trees walking around. But, then Jesus touched his eyes again, and when he looked intently he began see clearly. This living parable is quite instructive for those of us who have been led outside the village.
Jul 26, 2007
offscouring says:
At the risk of seeming over simplistic, concerning the concept of mans origin, Devinity, oneness with His creator. I would posit the concept of lost as a very profound definition, concerning mans condition since the alienation of affection ie. (the fall) If man is a fallin creator, a lost soul, a prodical child, etc.
Then he must needs be fallin from some higher state, lost from knowing who, what, or how to be what he once was, the prodical condition of man causes him to seek his satisfaction for completeness by serveing the world systems, hopeing to somehow arrive at a point where he may come to a knowledge of his origin. Ergo man finds himself feeding the swine who own the church, and feeding on the swill of religiosity.
Indeed we have become lost. The question we have to understand is.
What are we lost from?
Until we know what we are lost from.
Then how can we know if we are saved?
I knew I was lost so I went to church. The good churchmen showed me the salvation religion offered and it seemed good. I bought it!
Until Holy Spirit revealed to me that I still was lost!
Then I asked Holy Spirit What was I suppose to do?
The answer was simple enough.
BE YE PERFECT AS I AM PERFECT!
WHOA!!!!!!
We got problems here.
I already tried the perdect thing and it didn’t work.
So I became a member of the church which claimed it was the body of Christ, and of course it seemed reasonble that if the church was the body of Christ and Christ is perfect then being a member of that body would surely be the perfection I was looking for.
however there was something amiss something that seemed somehow incomplete. Holy Spirit through the scriptures showed me that only Christ was perfect and it was His Spirit that indwells every man, that sonship of the prodical that man yearns to know, it was that knowing that we are not what we were created to be that eats at the soul of man, the lostness is a sparation of mans fellowship oneness with the Devine. What then are we lost from? What then are we fallin from?
From where are we become prodical?
If NOT GOD!
IF NOT OUR OWN DEVINITY?
THEN WHAT?
dan
Jul 26, 2007
gpickren says:
Could you please list some of the scriptures that indicate that the Spirit of Christ indwells every man, for I am not familiar with those. You don’t need to bother with exposition, just list a few good examples.
Jul 26, 2007
offscouring says:
“To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Colossians 1:27).
John 1:9
KJV: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
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ASV: There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world.
——————————————————————————–
DBY: The true light was that which, coming into the world, lightens every man.
——————————————————————————–
WEY: The true Light was that which illumines every man by its coming into the world.
——————————————————————————–
WBS: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
YLT: He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world
So the only question left for us to ask is; Do I consider myself somewhat above or outside the commoner because I have recognized that Light(CHRIST) in me or in fact does as the scripture state that SPIRIT (Light) lighteth all men?
seems simple to me.
I have enjoyed having this opportunity to develope in some detail those things which I hold dear. I like to think of myself as being gracious enough to share that which i hold true without expecting others to accept me or my teachings even as Our Lord did in His earthly ministry.
Also I seek to learn from others even as I believe the Spirit of God reveals some pieces of the puzzle of life to each of us to share with oneanother.
dan
Jul 26, 2007
offscouring says:
I believe the more we are aware of the Devine in ourselves the more we can perceive the Devine in others.
It seems that the ego finds it needful to segragate humanity according to some preconceived idea of behavior that would denote Godliness in some and depravity in others whilest we evidently see that theose who pose as the most pious among us are indeed those who are most willing to trample the piety of others for their own exaltation(church leaders)
The Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of man is an inescapable absolute that desolves all parameters devised by which those who market the souls of mankind through deceit of fables and jargon designed to subjegate those who are desparate to return from their lostness unto the household of our Father.
dan
Jul 26, 2007
gpickren says:
Col 1:25-27
(25) Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,
(26) that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
(27) to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Read the whole sentence. “Christ in YOU” refers to the saints at Colossae who also happened to be Gentiles and to whom this letter was addressed. “YOu” is not to all men.
Joh 1:9-13
(9) There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
(10) He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
(11) He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
(12) But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
(13) who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Note “as many as received him, to them He gave the right to become children of God” and further goes on to qualify more that these who believe in His name, were those who were born of God.
Neither of these verses remotely support your claim that all from Adam have the Spirit of Christ in them.
Dan, look, I have asked you to give me some of scriptures upon which you have based this doctrine you are so focused on. But, these two not only do not support your claim, but directly contradict it. Much of what you are saying has great merit, but you seem to be viewing everything through this one lens and it is distorting your vision.
Yes, we are called to be free from sin and from the law and live in perfect fellowship with the Father. Yes, there are those in the churchmen who look down on the heathen and feel superior. But, not those who have experienced Romans 7 for themselves. Such as these know that they are sinners saved by grace, and have compassion on those who are lost. Jesus did. The apostles did.
If you have some other scriptures please post them, or if not, please read them carefully in context.
Jul 26, 2007
gpickren says:
As Dan and I got caught up in our diversion, I neglected looking closely at what Rick said and so in order to be no respecter of persons, I thought I should explain why I said that I agreed with much of what Dan had said in his first comment on this thread. In rebuttal to Dan’s original comments in this thread, Rick said the following:
“It is interesting to me that people having a problem with the church, many times don’t truly understand the scripture like they should.”
“We were never created to be divine but to live a life where we can experience God’s presence, where we can love Him and be loved by Him.”
Let’s see what the scriptures say about this:
We will be like Him and be called children of God.
1Jn 3:1-2
(1) See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
We will be conformed to the image of Christ that we would be His brothers. We will be glorified as He is glorified.
Rom 8:29-30
(29) For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
(30) and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Our body will be transformed into conformity with His.
Php 3:20-21
(20) For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
(21) who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
We will be raised imperishable in a spiritual body. God is spirit. As we have born the image of the earthly, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. We will be immortal.
1Co 15:40-54
(40) There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
(41) There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
(42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
(43) it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
(44) it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
(45) So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(46) However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
(47) The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
(48) As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
(49) Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
(50) Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
(53) For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
He has granted us everything pertaining to life and godliness that we will be partakers of His divine nature.
2Pe 1:2-4
(2) Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
(3) seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
(4) For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
We will be one with each other and with Christ as Jesus is one with the Father.
Joh 17:20-23
(20) “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
(21) that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
(22) “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
(23) I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
Finally, we are called sons of God, fellow heirs with Christ if ……….
Rom 8:14-17
(14) For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
(15) For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”
(16) The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
(17) and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
Rom 8:19
(19) For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
Heb 2:10-15
(10) For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
(11) For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
(12) saying, “I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE.”
(13) And again, “I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM.” And again, “BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME.”
(14) Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
(15) and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
Heb 12:4-10
(4) You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;
(5) and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
(6) FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.”
(7) It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
(8) But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
(9) Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
(10) For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.
Let’s see, we will like Him, have His divine image, a divine body, be brothers of Jesus, have divine spirit, be glorified, have divine nature, be one with Christ as He and the Father are one and explicitly called sons. So then, what are we to be?
There is a very good reason Jesus said the gate and path are narrow.
Jul 27, 2007
gpickren says:
Received this today and it is just too good and too timely for me not to share it. http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/001953.html
This is the essence what is being discussed here. Too much of the church is bound up in this matter of “being saved” in order to “go to heaven when they die” however they define it, or go about it and then imposing an external system on top of the convert. As a result, the Christian’s spiritual growth is arrested. He does not go on with the Lord. When I was there, I didn’t even know what that meant.
Yet, we see Paul, who is undoubtedly a Christian who speaks in Phillipians of something he greatly desires, so much to be all consuming, but yet that he says he has not yet attained it. There is a narrow gate but the narrow gate leads to a narrow path. Too much of the church is gathered around one side or the other of the gate, and some have even opened a brightly lit wide gate which overshadows the narrrow one nearby, but few are walking the path or even recognize it exists. This is nothing new, by any means, as a reading of Pilgrims’ Progress written in the 1600′s will quickly reveal. This one of the reasons so many are coming out of the organized church. They are seeking something deeper. Something real.
Those who have come out will find Pilgrim’s Progress ( http://www.ccel.org/ccel/bunyan/pilgrim.html ) and Nathaniel Hawthorne’s essay The Celestial Railroad http://www.wsu.edu/~campbelld/amlit/celest.htm to be very good reading. I think you will be greatly encouraged as you will see that you are in very good company.
Jul 27, 2007
tim says:
A request of gpickren and offscouring (and all commenters)…
While I appreciate the dialogue you have been having and by no means object to what you are discussing I would like to request that you limit the use of the comment function of this site to interact with the content of the letter for which you are commenting. If a dialogue is raised by the interaction here on the site that goes above and beyond the theme of the site we ask that you interact via email or some other means.
Thanks,
Tim
LFL
Jul 27, 2007
offscouring says:
Tim
I hope not to be construed as militant;
yet;
As I understand the crux of the letter above from Sheila dealt with the fixation of being lost without the approval and attendant induction into the sectarian ideaology. The essence of the comments here have dealt with the most fudamental premise of that ideaology. ie. the doctrine of man either being created in the image and likeness of God and have been made a living soul by the inculcation of God’s Spirit at the time of creation. Or whether indeed man is only a entity possessing the capcity to become a living soul.
Church membership many times is an essential element in salvation and so has baptism, communion, confession, etc ,etc,
These concepts have perpetrated a doctrine which denotes that man has to be initiated or transfigured by means of some act to become a child of the most High.
WHOA! I don’t slight these things as being viable observances with solemn conotations. BUT not the least bit relevant to ones relationship to our Father in heaven.
Sheila shares with us her abject bondage to the Church as her only hope to escape HELL!
Shame on those men who will use fear to coerce unwary folk into serving them. It is only through the teaching that we are something other than the offspring of God that fear can assume that strangle hold on us.
When we come to realise that God is our Father and we have access to Him though our Brother, Priest, and King Lord Jesus Christ, then fear holds no power over us. Hence the doctrine of duality is become to us a mute issue. A loathesome tool used for 1700 years to bring those who seek the Kingdom of God and His righteouness into a subservient status for the exaltation of the prealates and those whom they ORDAIN unto themselves as priests.
((((SUCH AS YE DO UNTO THE LEAST OF THESE MY BRETHERN YE DO UNTO ME)))))Jesus
dan
Jul 28, 2007
gpickren says:
I trust that this is directly on topic and seems to address Sheila’s personal experience and shows her experience is certainly not unique.
“Let us be perfectly frank and plain. Beloved, it is true that there are many good people, many leading Evangelical people, many Peters if you like, touching whose devotion to the Lord we can have no question: their zeal, their consecration, is not open to discussion; and yet they are so tied by a fixed system that they become points of conflict where the matter of going right on with the Lord is concerned. They oppose, they make the difficulty and the trouble: and it is not themselves personally but the thing which binds them. In principle it is this Judaism cropping up again, a fixed system which has held for generations and centuries, a tradition which is established, and anything that seems to require a superseding of that tradition – I choose the word carefully – at once provokes antagonism and conflict. Is it not strange? Why do I use the word supersede? Because of what Paul says here. He says there are those who have come in with another Gospel, which is not another. He means this, that all that came in with Israel was intended to lead right on to Christ, but now it is being used to hold back from Christ.”
Read the whole thing here: http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/001953.html
Jul 28, 2007
sharris1026 says:
Tim,
Although I appreciate your reason for wanting to curtail offscouring and gpickren’s dialogue, I want you to know I have found it intriguing, and I have not been the least bit dismayed that they may have appeared to veer from directly commenting on my letter. Of all that was said in the above “dialogue,” one thing I appreciated most was something said by gpickren, and I paraphrase: “If we insist that others agree with us doctrinally (no matter how convinced we are of the truth of it), then we are guilty of the same error we came out of, namely, that we can be saved by a doctrinal teaching.” I am reminded of John chapter 9 when the man who was blind from birth had his sight restored by Jesus and was told by the Jews that Jesus was a sinner. His reply says it all, “whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.” AMEN! I think too often we get caught up in putting the emphasis on “right doctrine,” which we cannot convince anyone of no matter how hard we try, because ultimately it must be revealed by the Spirit. I cannot determine who of those around me may or may not have the seed of divinity, but they certainly have the potential for having their “sight restored” just as I did, for I know it was nothing in me that brought about my healing. To God be the glory! The why’s or wherefore’s, I know not, I only know that “whereas I was blind, now I see.” Whereas I was in fear, now I am FREE!
Sheila
Jul 29, 2007
offscouring says:
thy faith has me thee whole
(Jesus)
The message Jesus brought to us was simple, we are each endowed with the capacity to know that God is our father and we are indeed eternal in Him.
There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. ( There never was any condemnation, on an inculcation of superstition) Christ brought to us the way the truth and the Life. Jesus took aware the doctrine of separation, and segregation. Jesus ministered to jew and gentile, rich and poor, moral and immoral alike.
The veil is rent ussunder, the temple has been destroyed and we are become one in Christ Jesus with no gurus, priests, preachers, pastors, or any other prealate to dictate doctrine, divisions or to have dominion over the Body of Christ.
I reiterate ad-infintum it was the proffesional churchmen who condemned our Lord, the Prophets of old, and it is the same who merchendise the gospel and market the souls of men today, in the name of Jesus they build walls and fetter the minds of the children of the most High.
What shall be the end of those who serve themselves in the name of Jesus? (Simon the sorcerer)
dan
Jul 29, 2007
gpickren says:
“If we insist that others agree with us doctrinally (no matter how convinced we are of the truth of it), then we are guilty of the same error we came out of, namely, that we can be saved by a doctrinal teaching.”
That is pretty close to what I said. I would agree we are not saved by assent to any doctrinal teaching, but by grace through faith in Christ. Most have no knowledge of any doctrine when they are saved and I know a couple who testify that they were just like the blind man you cited. They didn’t know what had happened to them. They had not prayed a sinner’s prayer nor walked an aisle, but all of a sudden because of the Lord’d intervention they see. Note that Jesus took the initiative with the blind man and he did not even know who gave him sight.
This is not to say that it is always this way. It certainly is not, and it seems that the Lord takes pains to do this in a wide variety of ways, perhaps to avoid giving credence to men who attempt to turn grace into a religious method. If He wanted us to have a ritual, He is fully capable of spelling one out in minute detail as He did for Moses as He set forth the similitude that would find its spiritual reality in Christ.
So then paraphrasing Paul in his letter to the Galatians, I have one question to ask you. Did you receive the Holy Spirit because of your vast and perfect knowledge of doctrine or by faith? If by faith, why then having begun in the Spirit by faith do you think you can now be perfected by knowledge of scripture.
This is not to minimize the value of proper understanding of scripture, for I do believe that our acceptance of false teaching can great arrest our growth, as should be evident by the state of maturity in the churches. However, the most important thing in our bible reading, in my opinion, is relying on the Holy Spirit as our teacher. Having begun with a spiritual revelation of Christ, we must be fed a diet of unleavened bread. That bread can only be received by revelation, just as when you first believed.
Regarding this I quote a brother who seemed to have a good take on it: “If I have to teach a person how to respond to revelation, that person did not have a revelation of Christ. It is dead religious traditions that need to teach its followers how to respond. An introduction to the living person of Christ needs no artificial protocols”
Aug 2, 2007
patrobus says:
I apologize for not making myself clearer in my post. I guess that comes from not having or taking the time to really concentrate. I was simply trying to convey that here on earth, in our human from, we were not created divine, meaning we are not “gods” as some might say. I realize and look forward to that time when we will be changed, but that is the key we will be changed into something we are not right now.
To return to the original theme of this post, As a member of the Body of Christ I am saddened that so many have given up on what is known as the local church. It is filled with imperfect people, some more imperfect than others, some even serving their own ends, but I believe it is still God’s means to fulfill His plan. Most of the New Testament is laid out either to correct wrongs in local churches or give insight into their establishment.
Even the pillars of the early church struggled. Paul had to rebuke Peter for his wrong actions. Paul and Barnabas were in sharp disagreement over how to do ministry. Apollos had to be corrected by Priscilla and Aquila. The “church” has never been perfect nor will it ever be. I am just glad that God doesn’t give up on us because we don’t get it right like some have given up on the “church” for not getting it right.
Ephesians 4:11-16 “ It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.” NIV
Pastors and teachers are part of God’s plan, but we must study ourselves so we won’t be deceived by false taeachers that will strive to destory us.
Keep studying the Word and allowing the Holy Spirit to speak to your hearts and some day we will meet Him in the air and be with Him forever. Be encouraged and blessed and may the peace of God be with you all.
Rick
Aug 2, 2007
gpickren says:
Rick, I agree that we should not give up on the “local church.” I think where the disagreement may come is just what is the “local church?” I know what you mean by it. It is the group of church people, who attend a church service, in a church building owned or rented by a church organization, most of which have named themselves to be such and such Church, to distinguish them from the other churches.
On my block there are people who attend four or five churches, all of which are within five minutes of my house. Which one of these is the “local church?” If I find someone who is not affiliated with one of these organizations and they come over to my house and we talk for four hours straight about what the Lord is doing in our lives, is that person not part of the local church.
You see, Rick, the difference between us on this subject, is that I believe that every person who loves the Lord who lives within driving distance is part of the local church and I greatly desire to get to know any of them as the Lord leads. In fact, I go to some lengths to find them. I even go to “a local Church” where I have found a few. I attend a morning gathering of men some of which attend meetings in 40 or 50 “churches”, but some don’t. Is this a gathering of the local church? Are the ones who are not members of a religious organization not part of the local church?
Because of land planning we have some land that was zoned for “churches” and the street is filled with them. Most patrons never even cross the street to meet with anyone who attends meetings in another building. Which one of these groups is the “local church?”
See what I mean?
Aug 3, 2007
sharris1026 says:
Rick,
Jesus didn’t come to “invite people to church” nor to “start a church” as men do today; rather, He came to make PEOPLE His Church by revelation of Himself. So if I am the church, and you are the church, where could we ever go to “go to church?” When we come together, WE ARE the church. When we are apart, we are the church, too. Can an arm arbitrarily declare that a leg’s not part of the body simply because it’s located at the opposite end of the torso? I think not. Neither can I judge you or you judge me “not part of the body” simply because one of us does not meet in a namebrand assembly.
Sadly, this truth can never be taught from pulpits for fear that it might detract from the headcount in local manmade organizations.
Sheila
Aug 4, 2007
offscouring says:
Ephesians 4:11-16 “ It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up UNTIL we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature,
Even as a newborn infant needs to be nurtured and fed, protected, and encouraged. So does a new convert to any faith with which he is desirious to become built up in. There is no issue with whether or not there is a need for leadership and direction. The problem is, that there seems to be a syndrom which curtails the maturation proccess. The church members seem to never become perfected in the faith. Else why would they keep coming back to be told by some man what God wants them to know. Everyone seems to miss that one little key word in the above scripture.
UNTIL!
this puts a whole new light on the leaderships place resonsibility and term.
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature,
If the so-called pillars we doing the right thing they would be turning the churchhouse crowd out to minister to the world instead of feeding on them as a wolf does a downed prey.
Jesus asked Peter “Do you love Me?
Peter of course replied Yes!
Jesus Said “FEED MY SHEEP”
He said this three times.
He didn’t say feed on my sheep
He didn’t milk my sheep.
He didn’t say shear my sheep.
BUT FEED!
the concept of a churchouse is contrary to the priciples of evangelism. How can we be sent out to minister to the world when we are sitting at the feet of a reverand rabbi or some other exatled guru.
Evidently we are not come to the unity of the faith or the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ else we wouldn’t keep going back to be spoon fed a diet of sectarinism and submission to the whims of men.
The little word UNTIL! is a corner on the road to maturity many miss.
dan
Mar 19, 2008
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